[Ben Holmes]

In a recent book, it was asserted that Lee Harvey Oswald was a 'crack' shot... but was he?

Lee Harvey Oswald was a poor shot. Scoring a 191 in his last rifle range qualification (May 1959 - over 4 years earlier), only one point above the absolute minimum required of a Marine. Anyone who has served in the Marine Corps is quite familiar with the ability that a 191 score illustrates, and it's simply not good enough.

(For those of you who are Marines, I might note that I quite often matched or beat a 191 score leaving the 300 yard line, with the 500 still to go. So I do have the experience to judge what LHO's scores mean.)

Another fact rarely mentioned is that his USMC experience was with the M-14, which is NOT a bolt-action rifle. To put it another way - LHO had virtually NO known experience with firing bolt-action rifles. (His sole experience appears to be two hunting occasions with a borrowed .22 bolt-action rifle - with his brother). Considering that the evidence shows that the Mannlicher-Carcano that was allegedly used had a difficult to operate bolt (3H 447, 449), eccentric trigger pull (3H 447), maladjusted scope (3h 405), disintegrating firing pin (3H 447, CE2974), and a homemade rifle sling that wasn't very usable (3H 397), the problems that the WCR faced was in convincing anyone that LHO had the experience or practice to overcome these difficulties.

Since he didn't have the experience, could he perhaps have taken the time to practice? In her earliest statements, from Dec 4th-16th, Marina invariably stated that she had no knowledge of LHO practicing with the MC. (CE 1785; CE 1401 pg 286; CE 1790; CE 1403 pg 735). It wasn't until two months later, during her testimony for the WC, that she for the first time asserted that LHO had practiced with the rifle - interestingly, one of her statements (Feb 17th, CE 2694 pg 5) was about rifle cleaning/practice in January - although the rifle wasn't mailed by Klein's for another 2 months... Amusingly, the following day, she retracted her story about the January cleaning/practice, realizing, or perhaps more probable, being reminded; that the rifle hadn't even been mailed for 2 more months...

So, how did the WCR characterize this contradictory evidence from Marina on any rifle practice by LHO? By ignoring all statements that they didn't want to hear. The casual reader of the WCR will be completely ignorant of Marina's two months of consistent statements of ignorance on the topic of any rifle practice by LHO.

Another eyewitness to a lack of rifle practice was Mrs. Paine:

Quote:Mr. JENNER. Did you know, are you familiar with the report that appeared in the Fort Worth Press on January 15, 1964, reporting that you had told Marvin Lane that Lee could not have taken the rifle from your garage and gone to practice without your knowledge? Do you recall that?
Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Mark Lane.
Mrs. PAINE. It is Mark but that perhaps was in the Fort Worth Press. I recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make that statement to a reporter for the Fort Worth Press?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did; with slight variation. It always came out a more definite statement in the press than I meant to make it.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say to the reporter then?
Mrs. PAINE. I said I did not see how he could have taken the gun from the garage without my knowing it. There were two weekends particularly in question which had been reported in the Press that someone had seen him at a firing range, one being the weekend of the 9th and 10th, and I was home virtually all of that weekend except Monday the 11th as I have already described. The other being the following weekend, and I didn't see how he could have the weekend he was not out at my house, I didn't see how he could have come out, taken the gun, gone away without my knowledge, and if the gun had not been in that garage that weekend, I didn't see what the purpose of his coming out the 21st of November was in the situation. And this is what I told Mr. Tackett of the Fort Worth Press.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also tell Mr. Tackett in addition to, that his reasons for his not engaging in rifle practice that weekend or any other weekend was that he couldn't drive an automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.
Mr. JENNER. And also that he couldn't have walked that far for rifle practice?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. By that far I mean there is no place you can walk to from my house, not only not to the firing range, but to an open enough place where you could fire. It would be difficult to walk that far.
Mr. JENNER. Where was the firing-range at which it was suggested he practiced? Mrs. PAINE. I don't know exactly. It was in the Grand Prairie area, just south of where we are located. But it would be a 15-minute car drive I would expect. (3H 125)

The WCR attempted to prove in another way that LHO had been practicing, stating on page 192-193 that:

Quote:Examination of the cartridge cases found on the sixth floor of the Depository Building established that they had been previously loaded and ejected from the assassination rifle, which would indicate that Oswald practiced operating the bolt.

But as with many other misrepresentations that the WCR was guilty of, this too was a lie. Here is the underlying "evidence" from the FBI that the WCR used:

Quote:... the extractor and ejector marks on C6 as well as on C7, C8, and C38 did not possess sufficient characteristics for identifying the weapon which produced them." (CE 2968)

I've many times asked the question - why does the truth need lies to support it, and no believer has been able to provide any answer at all...

The FBI tried desperately to find any proof of LHO practicing with the MC - even collecting rifle shells from various locations in Dallas and Irving where Oswald might have practiced... this included 23 POUNDS of rifle shells from the Sports Drome Rifle Range, at which eyewitnesses claim to have seen Oswald on several occasions. Laboratory examination failed to turn up a single shell coming from the MC. (CE 3049) Considering that they collected 1,336 cartridges, and 80 of them were 6.5mm MC shells, it's interesting that the FBI was unable to demonstrate that LHO did any rifle practice... for they were certainly trying to!

So one of the only two eyewitnesses to claim that LHO ever did any rifle practice contradicted her own statements, and had originally claimed otherwise; and no proof has ever been uncovered showing that LHO, a rather poor shot; had ever practiced with a rifle he was never trained to shoot. (I've left out the problems with De Mohrenschildt's statements, that will take a post as long as this one...)

Tis interesting that the WCR felt it necessary to lie on these points...

[Patrick C]

Ben Holmes Wrote:In a recent book, it was asserted that Lee Harvey Oswald was a 'crack' shot... but was he?

In what book is that...?

It is all relative, but I would suggest he was certainly good enough to get off 2 shots in just over 5 seconds and strike the target at 65 and 88 yards approx.

I would not say he was a "crack" shot as in top drawer - based on his marine records which show he was a marksman and sharpshooter - is that a crack shot...?

You should know Ben....!

[Ben Holmes]

Patrick C Wrote:

Ben Holmes Wrote:In a recent book, it was asserted that Lee Harvey Oswald was a 'crack' shot... but was he?

In what book is that...?

Quote:Oswald was a crack shot in the military. (Killing Kennedy - Bill O'Reilly, p. 15)

This has been mentioned before... and you've addressed it before... on the Amazon forums. Are you truly forgetting this... or just pretending?

Patrick C Wrote:It is all relative, but I would suggest he was certainly good enough to get off 2 shots in just over 5 seconds and strike the target at 65 and 88 yards approx.

Stop with your opinions, and deal with the actual EVIDENCE I posted...

Or not...

Patrick C Wrote:I would not say he was a "crack" shot as in top drawer - based on his marine records which show he was a marksman and sharpshooter - is that a crack shot...?

Only in the dreams of a true believer... But don't worry about my opinion, ask ANY Marine or former Marine if he thinks a Marksman is a "crack shot". You could also ask about a Sharpshooter - but Oswald was not a Sharpshooter.

That's a factoid from the true faith that simply never appears to die out.

Patrick C Wrote:You should know Ben....!

Of course I do. And I've stated my answer on numerous occasions. But let me be clear again... Expert is the only qualification that could be defined as a 'crack shot'. And I wouldn't even define the lower levels of Expert as crack shots. I'd argue, and I'm sure many in the world of competitive shooting would agree, that you'd need to consistently shoot in the 240's to be considered a 'crack shot'.

I came close...as I averaged between a 238 to 242... but I didn't consistently fire in the 240's... and was regularly beaten in rifle competition by those that I'd certainly define as 'crack shots'.

Oswald was NO-WHERE NEAR that level of shooting ability.

[Patrick C]

Ben Holmes Wrote:This has been mentioned before... and you've addressed it before... on the Amazon forums. Are you truly forgetting this... or just pretending?

Truly forgetting Holmes 100%.

[Ben Holmes]

Patrick C Wrote:

Ben Holmes Wrote:This has been mentioned before... and you've addressed it before... on the Amazon forums. Are you truly forgetting this... or just pretending?

Truly forgetting Holmes 100%.

I note for the record that you were unable to refute anything I stated in this thread...

[Patrick C]

I have no doubt you know what you are talking about when it comes to defining expert shots and crack shots....though without any direction on scoring for the level of "crack" shot it remains a somewhat subjective description.

A crack shot might be someone who was certainly an expert, but maybe about as good as you can get.

You do though seem to be overlooking something......you don't have to be a crack shot to hit a slowly moving target with 2 shots just over 5 seconds apart at 65 and 90 yards do you......from 6 floors up....?

I mean even I got off 3 shots in 7 seconds firing an old bolt action rifle for I think only the second time in my life. And I hit the targets at approx those distances.

Mike Yardley ...."its possible"....."it can be done"....."its doable"..........

So never mind being a crack shot - you did not need to be......

[Ben Holmes]

Patrick C Wrote:I have no doubt you know what you are talking about when it comes to defining expert shots and crack shots....though without any direction on scoring for the level of "crack" shot it remains a somewhat subjective description.

When it comes to Lee Harvey Oswald - it's not "subjective" at all.

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY you can describe a marksman who actually missed the target from time to time as a 'crack shot'.

Nothing "subjective" about that at all.

Bill O'Reilly flat lied when he made that claim.

Patrick C Wrote:A crack shot might be someone who was certainly an expert, but maybe about as good as you can get.

You do though seem to be overlooking something......you don't have to be a crack shot to hit a slowly moving target with 2 shots just over 5 seconds apart at 65 and 90 yards do you......from 6 floors up....?

Ah! The invariable change of topic.

However, you cannot avoid the fact that the REAL 'crack shots' were unable to do so. So how can I be "overlooking" what is not true? Nothing you can do is going to get around the fact that the Warren Commission had three NRA rated "Masters" - certainly "crack shots" by any definition - who failed to do what Oswald is alleged to have done using that same rifle.

Patrick C Wrote:I mean even I got off 3 shots in 7 seconds firing an old bolt action rifle for I think only the second time in my life. And I hit the targets at approx those distances.

Mike Yardley ...."its possible"....."it can be done"....."its doable"..........

So never mind being a crack shot - you did not need to be......

And yet, those three NRA rated "Masters" results are still unexplained...

P.S. It's interesting to note that Patrick can't seem to bring himself to criticize Bill O'Reilly for a statement he knows to be absolutely wrong. But, as I've often pointed out, believers rarely criticize other believers...

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