[Ben Holmes]

Quote:Based on the official evidence in the John F. Kennedy murder case, all of the following things are true:

1.) President John F. Kennedy and Texas Governor John B. Connally were shot by rifle bullets in Dallas' Dealey Plaza on Friday, November 22, 1963.

2.) Lee Harvey Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle (Serial Number C2766) was located inside a building which overlooked the assassination site (the Texas School Book Depository) when JFK and JBC were being wounded by gunfire.

3.) A nearly-whole bullet (Warren Commission Exhibit #399) was found inside the hospital where JFK and JBC were taken after the shooting. And CE399 was found in a location within the hospital where President Kennedy was never located prior to the bullet being found by Darrell Tomlinson. (Nor was JFK's stretcher ever in the area of the hospital where Tomlinson discovered the bullet.)

4.) Bullet CE399 was positively fired from Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle.

5.) Bullet CE399, based on the above points in total, HAD to have been inside Governor Connally's body on 11/22/63.

6.) A man who looked like Lee Harvey Oswald was seen firing a rifle at the President's limousine from a southeast corner window on the 6th Floor of the Book Depository Building. No other gunmen were seen firing any weapons in Dealey Plaza on November 22nd.

7.) No bullets (or large bullet fragments) were found in the upper back or neck of John Kennedy's body. And no significant damage was found inside these areas of JFK's body either.

8.) No bullets (or large bullet fragments) were found inside the body of Governor Connally after the shooting. The only bullet, anywhere, that can possibly be connected with Connally's wounds is Bullet CE399.

9.) Given the point in time when both JFK and JBC were first hit by rifle fire (based on the Abraham Zapruder Film), and given the known location of Governor Connally's back (entrance) wound, and also taking into account the individual points made above -- Bullet CE399 had no choice but to have gone through the body of President Kennedy prior to entering the back of John B. Connally.

David Von Pein doesn't like to defend his claims against critical review in public, so he posts them on a website where no-one can refute him. Patrick has claimed to be willing to defend these claims, so it's worthwhile to refute each claim to see just how truthful Patrick will be...

I predict in advance that Patrick will decide that this isn't worthwhile trying to defend...

So, one by one:

Quote:1.) President John F. Kennedy and Texas Governor John B. Connally were shot by rifle bullets in Dallas' Dealey Plaza on Friday, November 22, 1963.

Indeed, probably the only thing that I will agree with, based on the evidence and logic. The possibility of accurate pistol fire over the distances involved would be astronomically small... It's interesting to note that of DVP's nine points, this is the only one that is logical and reasonable.
 

Quote:2.) Lee Harvey Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle (Serial Number C2766) was located inside a building which overlooked the assassination site (the Texas School Book Depository) when JFK and JBC were being wounded by gunfire.

Nope. Mere speculation that isn't supported by the evidence. DVP made a desperate attempt to refute the fact that there are no bank endorsements on the alleged money order that was presumed to have been used to pay for the rifle. Yet he failed miserably in that attempt. If Oswald didn't pay for the rifle - then the only other logical way to account for the known evidence IS THAT HE WAS FRAMED WITH FALSIFIED EVIDENCE.

There's truly no other credible explanation for that money order.

And until that money order can be explained in terms of the Warren Commission's theory, then it's simply dishonest to claim that the rifle belonged to Oswald.

And if the rifle cannot be connected to Oswald - then 99% of the case simply dissolves...

I've demonstrated quite conclusively in my posts on Bugliosi's 53 bits of evidence that there simply isn't the evidence that believers are wont to believe. So this attempt to merely presume what needs to be shown is a common tactic among believers.

 

Quote:3.) A nearly-whole bullet (Warren Commission Exhibit #399) was found inside the hospital where JFK and JBC were taken after the shooting. And CE399 was found in a location within the hospital where President Kennedy was never located prior to the bullet being found by Darrell Tomlinson. (Nor was JFK's stretcher ever in the area of the hospital where Tomlinson discovered the bullet.)

Once again, we are looking at a wee bit of dishonesty on DVP's part. There was no chain of custody on this bullet that could have stood up in court, and DVP is well aware of that fact. It doesn't matter WHERE CE399 was found... if there's no valid chain of custody, then it's simply inadmissible evidence. DVP is also undoubtedly aware of the threatening phone call that Tomlinson described... and yet has no explanation for... Once again, the facts fit a frameup quite nicely - and is a very ill fit indeed for the Warren Commission's theory.

 

Quote:4.) Bullet CE399 was positively fired from Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle.

Nope. CE399 has been established with valid testimony to have been fired from the Mannlicher Carcano, C2766 - that's ALL THAT CAN BE LEGITIMATELY AND HONESTLY STATED. DVP wishes to go beyond what the evidence shows in order to defend the Warren Commission's theory.

I predict that Patrick will absolutely REFUSE to refute my statement here... and defend DVP's quite misleading assertion.

 

Quote:5.) Bullet CE399, based on the above points in total, HAD to have been inside Governor Connally's body on 11/22/63.

Again... nope.

There's been no evidence presented to show that CE399 was even fired on 11/22/63. Indeed, the weight of the testimony tends to indicate that this was part of a frameup, rather than legitimate evidence.

As well, DVP certainly knows that the ballistics tests conducted on behalf of the Warren Commission was completely unable to duplicate the pristine nature of CE399. At a velocity low enough to retain the bullet's shape - no bones will be broken... and at a velocity high enough to break bone, the bullet is also severely deformed.

 

Quote:6.) A man who looked like Lee Harvey Oswald was seen firing a rifle at the President's limousine from a southeast corner window on the 6th Floor of the Book Depository Building. No other gunmen were seen firing any weapons in Dealey Plaza on November 22nd.

Nope... indeed, Brennan; whom everyone will agree got the best look at the assassin, ABSOLUTELY REFUSED TO IDENTIFY HIM AS LEE HARVEY OSWALD in lineups conducted that day. As well, all of the witnesses described the assassin's clothing as different from Oswald's. The nonsense about no other gunmen being seen firing a weapon is sheer nonsense... and disguises the fact that DVP knows that other rifles were seen that day close to, or in Dealey Plaza.

This same argument can be used to show that Nicole Brown is really still alive, since no-one saw anyone using a knife on June 12, 1994. It's a nonsensical argument that can only be used by the faithful to help other believers.

 

Quote:7.) No bullets (or large bullet fragments) were found in the upper back or neck of John Kennedy's body. And no significant damage was found inside these areas of JFK's body either.

Simply untrue. DVP knows quite well that the prosectors WERE FORBIDDEN from dissecting the track of the wound - so there's simply no cause for him to assert that no "significant damage" was not found there - they never looked.

Indeed, it's rather silly for DVP to claim that a bullet went through a body, yet no "significant damage" attended that transit. Surely he's trying to make some other point, because his statement as is - is simply nonsense.

Presumably, DVP is trying to account for the nearly pristine nature of CE399 - yet avoiding the real place that severe damage would accrue - Connally's wrist.

 

Quote:8.) No bullets (or large bullet fragments) were found inside the body of Governor Connally after the shooting. The only bullet, anywhere, that can possibly be connected with Connally's wounds is Bullet CE399.

Untrue. DVP is well aware of the disappearing bullet fragments found in Connally's wrist. Nor is it true that CE399 is the only bullet that can be connected to Connally's wounds... the attending doctor testified that up to THREE bullets could have caused Connally's wounds.

And since the limo was immediately hustled out of Dallas, and never searched by impartial investigators - there's no telling what might have been found in the way of bullets or bullet fragments.

Indeed, Secret Service Agent Kinney claims that he found CE399 in the limo. And since Patrick is fond of statements made decades later - he can't refute this on any logical grounds.

 

Quote:9.) Given the point in time when both JFK and JBC were first hit by rifle fire (based on the Abraham Zapruder Film), and given the known location of Governor Connally's back (entrance) wound, and also taking into account the individual points made above -- Bullet CE399 had no choice but to have gone through the body of President Kennedy prior to entering the back of John B. Connally.

Nope. The Zapruder film does NOT show that JFK and JBC were hit by the same bullet. It quite clearly shows Connally reacting several seconds LATER than JFK. DVP knows this - and glosses over it.

Nor is it true that a bullet striking Connally had to have gone through JFK first. This is a quite misleading lie. It presumes 'facts' not shown to be true, and simply presumes that the Warren Commission's theory of the shooting sequence is correct.

Yet the evidence doesn't support this - and DVP knows quite well that it doesn't. Indeed, for many years, believers used to argue a "delayed reaction" on the part of Connally for the express purpose of explaining the extant Zapruder film. They no longer make that argument, deciding that they can move a presumed "reaction" on the part of Connally to a point earlier than the Warren Commission did.

Also note that DVP has repeatedly asserted a role for CE399 that he cannot demonstrate using the evidence. There's a reason that the United States Judicial system requires a chain of custody for evidence.
 

---

So in conclusion - what we see here is speculation piled on speculation, and presumptions given the status of evidence.

It's worth noting the evidence... I say again, the EVIDENCE that the theory of a single bullet transiting and striking both JFK & Connally is far more credible ... and rather completely avoided by Patrick (and all other believers, for that matter). Here it is again:

1. The depth of the wound.
2. The location of the wound.
3. The missing interior chest photo.
4. The original description of the throat wound.
5. The original autopsy describing a different explanation for the throat wound. (Rankin)
6. The size of the wound in comparison to it's supposed "exit".
7. The complete lack of any metal found on the front of the shirt & tie.
8. The missing report & testimony of Stombaugh.
9. The earliest attempts to explain the frontal shot (Life Magazine, Mandel's article)

It would be truly amusing to see if DVP could address my 9 points the way I've so easily dismissed his 9 points... we already know that Patrick cannot.

[Ben Holmes]

Patrick C Wrote:Study the case for the SBT on DVP's web site - counter the points and I will respond - civily.

 

Patrick is waiting for me to label him a coward for not responding, so that he can claim I'm not "civil".

The truth, of course, is that he CANNOT refute my refutation of David Von Pein's website post.

You cannot force believers to debate... they simply cannot.

[Patrick C]

(10-30-2016, 08:40 PM)Ben Holmes Wrote:  DVP states

Quote:No bullets (or large bullet fragments) were found inside the body of Governor Connally after the shooting. The only bullet, anywhere, that can possibly be connected with Connally's wounds is Bullet CE399."

Untrue. DVP is well aware of the disappearing bullet fragments found in Connally's wrist. Nor is it true that CE399 is the only bullet that can be connected to Connally's wounds... the attending doctor testified that up to THREE bullets could have caused Connally's wounds.

Do you understand the difference between bullet or large bullet fragments....?

The slivers of bullet that were taken from Connally were the thickness of a postage stamp and minute......

Yes of course three bullets "COULD" have caused Conally's wounds - his chest wounds, his wrist wound and his leg wound because they were on seperate parts of the body. However if they are connected up - they could also have been caused by one bullet.

Your point is moot.


 

(10-30-2016, 08:40 PM)Ben Holmes Wrote:  There's been no evidence presented to show that CE399 was even fired on 11/22/63. Indeed, the weight of the testimony tends to indicate that this was part of a frameup, rather than legitimate evidence.

CE399 was found on a hospital stretcher - there was no scientific or ballistics test then to determine if it had been fired on that Friday.

As far as I am aware, there is no test now that could show that a bullet had been fired on a given day.



 

(10-30-2016, 08:40 PM)Ben Holmes Wrote:  Nope. The Zapruder film does NOT show that JFK and JBC were hit by the same bullet. It quite clearly shows Connally reacting several seconds LATER than JFK. DVP knows this - and glosses over it.

The Zapruder film shows that Kennedy and Connally show a visible reaction to being shot within a second of each other. Z222 to Z236 which is 14 frames or approx 5/6ths of a second.

It is perfectly reasonable for a human to show a delayed reaction to a gun shot to the torso. No one can doubt that. It is a fact.

DVP is not quite right, the bullet, the bullet could have struck the limo had it been diverted on exit for example. The fact is it was not, because the bullet did not strike the limo, it struck Connally's back.

[Ben Holmes]

(11-04-2016, 06:12 PM)Patrick C Wrote:  

(10-30-2016, 08:40 PM)Ben Holmes Wrote:  DVP states

Quote:No bullets (or large bullet fragments) were found inside the body of Governor Connally after the shooting. The only bullet, anywhere, that can possibly be connected with Connally's wounds is Bullet CE399."

Untrue. DVP is well aware of the disappearing bullet fragments found in Connally's wrist. Nor is it true that CE399 is the only bullet that can be connected to Connally's wounds... the attending doctor testified that up to THREE bullets could have caused Connally's wounds.

Do you understand the difference between bullet or large bullet fragments....?

Of course. Do you?

DVP knew very well, as do you, that there are bullet fragments found in Connally that have disappeared, and thus cannot be scientifically demonstrated to have come from one bullet or another... indeed, had the actual weight of those missing fragments been what has been stated, it would have made it IMPOSSIBLE for CE399 to have been the involved bullet.

 

(11-04-2016, 06:12 PM)Patrick C Wrote:  The slivers of bullet that were taken from Connally were the thickness of a postage stamp and minute......

Yes of course three bullets "COULD" have caused Conally's wounds - his chest wounds, his wrist wound and his leg wound because they were on seperate parts of the body. However if they are connected up - they could also have been caused by one bullet.

Your point is moot.

I'm quite sure you're aware that Nurse Audrey Bell, who actually handled these fragments, asserted that "the smallest was the size of the striking end of a match, and the largest at least twice as big."

So no... you aren't being quite truthful with your assertions... as usual.

 

(11-04-2016, 06:12 PM)Patrick C Wrote:  

(10-30-2016, 08:40 PM)Ben Holmes Wrote:  There's been no evidence presented to show that CE399 was even fired on 11/22/63. Indeed, the weight of the testimony tends to indicate that this was part of a frameup, rather than legitimate evidence.

CE399 was found on a hospital stretcher - there was no scientific or ballistics test then to determine if it had been fired on that Friday.

As far as I am aware, there is no test now that could show that a bullet had been fired on a given day.

So you agree with me...

You must obviously reject DVP's claim that "5.) Bullet CE399, based on the above points in total, HAD to have been inside Governor Connally's body on 11/22/63." - yet quite dishonestly, you refuse to publicly state that.

Why are you afraid to be honest, Patrick?

DVP clearly made a false claim - one that EVEN YOU admit could not have been shown to be true.

YET YOU REFUSE TO PUBLICLY CHASTISE A FELLOW BELIEVER FOR A FALSE CLAIM!!

And then go on to claim that there can be honest believers... and name DVP as one of them!!!

Do you have no shame?

 

(11-04-2016, 06:12 PM)Patrick C Wrote:  

(10-30-2016, 08:40 PM)Ben Holmes Wrote:  Nope. The Zapruder film does NOT show that JFK and JBC were hit by the same bullet. It quite clearly shows Connally reacting several seconds LATER than JFK. DVP knows this - and glosses over it.

The Zapruder film shows that Kennedy and Connally show a visible reaction to being shot within a second of each other. Z222 to Z236 which is 14 frames or approx 5/6ths of a second.

It is perfectly reasonable for a human to show a delayed reaction to a gun shot to the torso. No one can doubt that. It is a fact.

DVP is not quite right, the bullet, the bullet could have struck the limo had it been diverted on exit for example. The fact is it was not, because the bullet did not strike the limo, it struck Connally's back.

Tut tut tut, Patrick, you're lying again.

Here's DVP's claim again:

Quote:9.) Given the point in time when both JFK and JBC were first hit by rifle fire (based on the Abraham Zapruder Film), and given the known location of Governor Connally's back (entrance) wound, and also taking into account the individual points made above -- Bullet CE399 had no choice but to have gone through the body of President Kennedy prior to entering the back of John B. Connally.

Yet you say he's "not quite right".

YOU'RE A LIAR.

If a bullet "could have been diverted" - then it certainly could not have "...had no choice but to have gone the body of President Kennedy prior to entering the back of John B. Connally."

You want to eat your cake and have it too...

You're too dishonest to simply admit that I refuted DVP's nine claims quite easily - and you couldn't defend him. You've only answered three of the claims, and quite poorly at that...