[Ben Holmes]

Patrick C Wrote:The single shot to head that was fired from the TSBD 6th floor SE window had three composite sounds initially:

Sound barrier
Muzzle blast
Impact

Fragmentation of the bullet caused pieces to strike the windshield and the mirror and trimming

Echoes would occur.....

And as Roy K was right there in the thick of it, it is no surprise he thought he was hearing more than one shot....

Anyone who's been close to the trajectory of a bullet knows this for the nonsense it is.

Marines at the rifle range are just a few feet away from bullets flying, and I can, with experience, state that a single bullet has a single sound, and one will not be confused with echoes.

Only people not in the direct path of a bullet might get confused.

Tell us Patrick, have you ever had a bullet fly within a few feet of your head? You'd drop this silly claim if you take the time to experience it.

[Lee Abbott]

Patrick C invents excuses: "Fragmentation of the bullet caused pieces to strike the windshield and the mirror and trimming... Echoes would occur....."

Me: Why didn't CE 399 also break into fragments, considering it hit more and harder bones?

Patrick C continues: "And as Roy K was right there in the thick of it, it is no surprise he thought he was hearing more than one shot...."

Me: You're entitled to your opinion, Patrick, but not your own set of facts.

Patrick C says: "Interestingly, Clint Hill and Paul Landis heard only two distinctly separate shots about 5 seconds apart.....the JFK back shot and head shot......I think THEY got it right......"

Me: Yes, I'm sure Hill's sense of time was perfect while trying to catch the President's limo.... And are you conveniently forgetting the 21 people affiliated with some form of law enforcement that said they heard at least one shot from the grassy knoll area?

Patrick C finishes: "Does the term common sense ring any bells with you Lee....?"

Me: It does, and it tells me neither Oswald nor the M-C rifle was physically capable of doing the deed.

[Garry Puffer]

Patrick C Wrote:Does the term common sense ring any bells with you Lee....?

"Common sense tells us that the world is flat, that the sun goes around the earth, that heavy bodies always fall faster than light bodies, that boats made of iron will sink." - Stuart Chase


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[Lee Abbott]

Common sense also tells me when I can plainly see someone shot in the temple which then causes them to be thrown violently backwards.

[Patrick C]

Lee: Why didn't CE 399 also break into fragments, considering it hit more and harder bones?

Fatal bullet struck the skull at 2200 ft per second

Non fatal bullet strikes JC significantly slowed...DUH...!

Patrick C continues: "And as Roy K was right there in the thick of it, it is no surprise he thought he was hearing more than one shot...."

Lee: You're entitled to your opinion, Patrick, but not your own set of facts.

That Kellerman thought he heard a flurry of shots does not make it TRUE or a FACT......

[Ad hominem deleted by Admin]

Patrick C says: "Interestingly, Clint Hill and Paul Landis heard only two distinctly separate shots about 5 seconds apart.....the JFK back shot and head shot......I think THEY got it right......"

Lee: Yes, I'm sure Hill's sense of time was perfect while trying to catch the President's limo.... And are you conveniently forgetting the 21 people affiliated with some form of law enforcement that said they heard at least one shot from the grassy knoll area?

No.....I am aware of only around 10 persons who thought shots came from 2 directions.

The remainder who thought a shot came from the GK thought ALL the shots came from there - and they were of course wrong!

Patrick C finishes: "Does the term common sense ring any bells with you Lee....?"

Lee: It does, and it tells me neither Oswald nor the M-C rifle was physically capable of doing the deed.

Absolute tripe. The MC was an effective weapon at 300 yards let alone 90.......

Two shots 5+ seconds apart = good shooting, nothing more...

How many times do we have to go over and over this.....

[Ben Holmes]

Patrick C Wrote:How many times do we have to go over and over this.....

I'm guessing that this will continue until you can publicly admit that the Warren Commission was unable, using vastly better shooters with many advantages; to duplicate the alleged shooting feat.

That's still a fact.

[William Charleston]

Ben Holmes Wrote:

William Charleston Wrote:IF the sounds of the shots were recorded, then the times between shots would match the times between shots in the Zapruder film. Nothing could be simpler, even a child could understand that.

The only major problem is that you only have an agreed and uncontestable time for a single shot... between Z-312 and Z-313.

We all agree on Z312/313. John Connally makes TWO of the quickest movements in the Zapruder film, the first was 4.8 seconds BEFORE JFK's head shot and the second one was 0.7 seconds AFTER the JFK head shot.

We all know that the audio evidence analysis showed that one of the shots was fired from the grassy knoll with a probability of 95% (or better). Anyone who has looked at the Zapruder film of the JFK head shot thinks that JFK was shot in the head from the right front because he recoils back and to the left, directly away from the grassy knoll. Therefore, it makes sense to align shot #4 with Z312/313, the JFK head shot.

So what happened 4.8 seconds BEFORE JFK's head shot? (313-224)/18.3=4.8 seconds


We can see that Connally's jacket moves toward his tie between frames 223 and 224, something likely happened then

By frame 228, (4/18.3) seconds later (about 1/4th of a second) from Connally's first movement, he has snapped his head RAPIDLY TO LOOK TOWARD HIS LEFT.

IT IS OF COURSE REASONABLE TO ASSUME THAT CONNALLY IS REACTING TO A GUNSHOT FIRED ABOUT 4.8 SECONDS BEFORE JFK'S HEAD SHOT


What happened 0.7 seconds AFTER JFK's head shot?



These two frames are Z324 and Z327. Connally's head snaps RAPIDLY downward and it is likely something happened between those two frames (which is 0.7 seconds AFTER JFK's head shot). IT IS OF COURSE REASONABLE TO ASSUME THIS MOVEMENT STARTING AT Z325 IS A REACTION TO A GUNSHOT.




There are no other agreed locations for a shot.
This makes matching the audio to the video quite impossible.

As you can see, nobody has to agree with me for the locations of shots in the Zapruder film/acoustical evidence. Just looking at the Z film and listening to the government's version has hidden the fact Connally was shot 2 different times. Now you MIGHT be able to see:
1. Accoustical analysis shows shot #4 was fired from the grassy knoll, it only makes sense to align that shot with the JFK head shot
2. 0.7 seconds after shot #4, shot #5 was fired (from behind), it missed JFK's head and hit Connally in his back, bending him over violently forward just as he said happened
3. Because Connally reacted to a shot 4.8 seconds BEFORE JFK's head shot, it is likely that not all of Connally's wounds were caused by ONE BULLET.

The audio data stands quite well enough on it's own. But the extant Zapruder film has holes a truck could drive through.

The time between shots in the acoustical evidence matching major events in the Zapruder film PROVES the forgers of the Zapruder film changed what we see but they did not SIGNIFICANTLY change the timing of the major events. For example, Dino Brugioni when interviewed by Doug Horne said he saw several head shot splatter frames but we only see ONE now. That is reliable source which is good enough for me to say that some frames were removed when the Z film was altered to hide what we see. At that time, there was no reason to change the timing of the major events shown in the Z film.

If at this point you argue the Z film has incorrect event timing and the acoustical evidence was faulty as the sounds of the gunshots were NOT recorded, then you have to believe that the audio experts just happened to match the Z film by guessing. Obviously, the only reasonable conclusion is the sounds of the shots were recorded and the Zapruder film forgers did NOT significantly change the timing of the film.

(I enjoyed your post, however!)

The point of posting is not to entertain but for me to get the satisfaction when some of you have the light bulb in your head light up and say, oh my gosh, it really is simple. But you need to know a lot more before all of this fits together. The timing of the last 3 shots matching the timing of what we see in the Z film is just a start, there is so much more to know before all of it fits together.

[Patrick C]

Tell us Patrick, have you ever had a bullet fly within a few feet of your head? You'd drop this silly claim if you take the time to experience it.[/quote]

No.

But I have watched people firing a rifle and I have heard two sounds per shot....obviously not in Dealey Plaza !

[Ben Holmes]

Patrick C Wrote:Tell us Patrick, have you ever had a bullet fly within a few feet of your head? You'd drop this silly claim if you take the time to experience it.

No.

But I have watched people firing a rifle and I have heard two sounds per shot....obviously not in Dealey Plaza ![/quote]
The issue, of course, is where you are... what you hear is quite dependent on where you are. Any Marine who's ever pulled targets knows exactly what I'm talking about.

[William Charleston]

Quote:by Lee Abbott
Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:14 pm
Was that what Secret Service agent Kellerman referred to as a "flurry of shots" .... An echo chamber?

What Roy Kellerman said about the order of the last sounds of shots is not sufficient in this case to prove the last two shots really were BANG-BANG. Kellerman goes on to define the flurry of shots as TWO, like a jet breaking the sound barrier.

But due to the fact DOZENS of other witnesses said they also heard BANG-BANG (or words to that effect) takes it from an isolated observation by one person that might be wrong to the point of being a bit more believable, but dozens of people saying they heard BANG-BANG still does NOT prove that is what happened.

Quote:by Patrick C
Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:20 pm
The single shot to head that was fired from the TSBD 6th floor SE window had three composite sounds initially:

Sound barrier
Muzzle blast
Impact

Fragmentation of the bullet caused pieces to strike the windshield and the mirror and trimming

Echoes would occur.....

Why isn't Patrick C right? His argument sounds reasonable and that is consistent with what the US government concluded (the last sounds were echoes, not separate shots).

At this point, you have a tie with no way of knowing with certainty which is right.


But now IF YOU CONSIDER evidence that most of you have considered INVALID, you can break the tie and know with certainty what actually did happen. But to use seemingly invalid evidence is nothing but a useless effort unless you know something that the really smart experts did NOT know when they told you the "newer" evidence is invalid.

The "tie" for this evidence is two sets of audio experts reviewed the Dallas police radio recording made during the shooting. They said based on reviews of test shots fired in Dealey Plaza that the echo sounds of gunfire statistically matched the actual police recording such that there was FOUR shot fired. A later review showed that the audio experts did NOT show there was a 5th shot which the experts showed was also statistically valid. On the other side of the acoustical evidence validity question is that SEVERAL (really meaning MANY) experts in other fields determined that the audio evidence is NOT valid. Their arguments include cross talk, and motorcycle ignition noise and even cosmic noise

WHICH DO YOU BELIEVE?

Now you can consider the tie breaker for the audio evidence. If the times between shots using the audio evidence matches the times between shots using the Zapruder film, then that means BOTH the Zapruder film AND the audio evidence are tied to the same events. That does NOT mean that everything you see in the Zapruder film is what actually happened. When the film was forged on the first weekend after the assassination, it was a sloppy job. The conspirators never expected or wanted the Z film to be released to the public but Jim Garission's New Orleans circus subpoenaed the Zapruder film and copies were released to the public. Any reasonable person after reviewing Doug Horne's work on the ARRB (Assasssination Records Review Board) knows the Zapruder film has been forged. But the forgers did NOT significantly change the timing of what actually happened which is why the times between shots in the Z film reasonably matches the audio analysis of the Dallas police radio recording. As Doug says, in 1963, they could only change so much. Dino Brugioni should remove all doubt you have about the authenticity of the Z film.

https://vimeo.com/102327635



The five shots in the acoustical analysis tie to events in the Zapruder film
Shot #1 Z frame 178 Rosemary Willis immediately stopped running when she heard the first shot
Shot #2 Z frame 201 JFK is waving before he disappears behind the sign with his hand above his head. A second later, he has his hands to his neck responding to the shot fired from the left front through the windshield. JFK's RAPID lowering of his hands is in response to his neck wond
Shot #3 Z frame 224 Connally was doing nothing during the time behind the sign as he is looking to his right BEFORE he disappears and as he emerges from behind the sign, then he begins his dramatic turn to look to his right as he reacts to a minor bullet fragment wound to his left thigh (this is only one of the things that happen due to the shot fired at Z224)
Shot #4 Z frame 313 JFK is hit in the head by a shot fired from the grassy knoll (with a probability of 95% or better)
Shot #5 Z frame 325, fired from the TSBD, it misses JFK's head and hit Connally in the back, bending him over.

Once you understand the facts presented, it is clear the sounds of the shots were recorded. That VALIDATES some of the analysis the audio experts did but there are still significant errors in what they said happened. By using BOTH the Zapruder film AND the corrected audio analysis, you can PROVE what happened during the shooting.

Once you show what happened during the shooting using the Zapruder film and the acoustical analysis, you can then compare that information to the US government's Warren Commission conclusions. When you do that, you will find discrepancies between what actually happened and what the government said happened. When you look at the discrepencies, it quickly becomes obvious that either the government investigators were the biggest bunch of idiots in history OR the fix was in . The correct answer is: The fix was in.

It makes no difference what you or I think happened, it only matters what the mathematics in the assassination of President Kennedy shows. Using high school level math, it can be easily shown the probability of just a few of the "coincidences" randomly occurring in the assassination would be well over a million to one against these happening. In other words, many of these events that the Warren Commission and the HSCA worked to ignore were not random, they were causal events associated with a powerful conspiracy.

What would be true if the acoustical evidence is valid (and this is just a short list) and the US government forged evidence to hide the truth?

1. Medical personnel at Parkland would have seen a large exit wound in the rear of President Kennedy's head because the audio evidence shows shot #4 was fired from the right front of JFK. The US government's "evidence" would show a rear entry shot fired by a lone shooter.



2. The acoustical evidence analysis shows the last two shots were fired BANG-BANG, two shots 0.7 seconds apart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUagGiWd5cY There are dozens more who said they heard the last two shots were fired BANG-BANG but I like this one because Patsy Paschall says almost immediately she heard BANG-BANG (pow-pow means the same thing ) Plus I get tired of putting in links to their interviews.....

3. When you look at the Z film and use the timing of the acoustical analysis, you see John Connally violently bent over a split second AFTER JFK was shot in the head. John Connally should say when the bullet hit him in the back, that it bent him over because that is what we see happened in the Z film. He did say the force of the blow to his back bent him over in every interview I've seen him do when he talked about the shooting.

https://vimeo.com/140778495



4. If the US government lied about the assassination and forged evidence, then we should see "problems" with their explanation. Let me count the ways (but I'll just show one here).


JFK's shirt showed an entry in his back about 5 inches below his collar

A bullet hole in his back about 5 inches below his collar with a shot fired from behind and above means that the bullet could NOT exit his throat and then go DOWN to hit Connally in front of him.

What is really interesting about the last figure is that there are people who quote this "documentary" to say they recreated the SBT shot. NO THEY DIDN'T but the TV show said they did. That is apparently sufficient for those who don't pay attention to details like it's impossible.

I could keep listing pesky facts that show the SBT didn't happen but the BANG-BANG scenario really did happen but even then, some will bury their head even deeper below ground level. The Kennedy assassination mystery then becomes a psychological issue and ceases being a technical issue.