[Ben Holmes]

Patrick C Wrote:

Ben Holmes Wrote:One way to 'authenticate' the film is quite simple - if it matches what eyewitnesses saw.

Does that include the witness who thought JFK stood up and the one who saw a fluffy white dog in the back seat...?

The "fluffy dog" factoid is one that believers never seem to let go of, despite the fact that there WAS something there that looked "fluffy" and "white".

Clint Hill certainly did stand up...

You see how easy it is to mesh what people saw with the actual facts?

The problem that you have, is that NO-ONE saw the 'back and to the left' movement... all reports had him "slumping" forward or slumping left. This is not the movement currently seen, is it? This is a contradiction you cannot explain... in addition to the slowdown/stop witnesses.

Patrick C Wrote:

Ben Holmes Wrote:Simple... logical... and requires no citation for any honest person.

But if the film does NOT match up with what eyewitnesses saw, then this is evidence for alteration.

Absolute tripe. There were many witnesses who did not think the limo stopped...are you ignoring them...?

Nope... this is why I invariably use the phrase "slowdown/stop" - but clearly you're too dishonest to actually debate what I really say... so you simply make up strawmen to attack.

The limo in the Z-film certainly has no stop - and the only slowdown seen was observed in a frame by frame analysis of the film. IT WAS NEVER SEEN PRIOR TO THE ALVAREZ STUDY OF THE FILM.

When you actually analyze the eyewitnesses, many of the closest witnesses reported a stop, to include the most valuable of all witnesses, the motorcycle cops... since they were tracking THEIR movement based on the limo - and would be the most credible witnesses. The "slowdown" witnesses were generally much further away... and if the stop, as the witnesses reported, were only a second or two - then clearly it would only look like a slowdown to those further away with a poor view.

As one person puts it: "Some reported seeing it slow dramatically and others that it came to a complete stop, which makes sense since, from different positions, different witnesses would have seen it slow dramatically as it came to a complete stop."

But this entire issue is a problem for believers - because it's contradictory to what we see in the extant Z-film. DOZENS of people reported the slowdown/stop - yet IT CANNOT BE SEEN BY THE CASUAL VIEWER OF THE Z-FILM.

For those interested, here's a resource you can read to judge the eyewitnesses for yourself.

Patrick C Wrote:

Ben Holmes Wrote:Simply stating that the film shows a limo slowdown will NOT corroborate the eyewitnesses... there's that minor problem of believability here... dozens of witnesses seeing the limo for the first time were able to note OBVIOUSLY ENOUGH a slowdown of the limo.

Nonsense. If the limo had stopped it would be apparent in the Nix and Z films. It is not. People perceived the limo stopped when in fact it slowed down.

You're using the same old tired logical fallacy. You cannot use the film to refute the evidence THAT THE FILM IS NOT AUTHENTIC.

Patrick C Wrote:

Ben Holmes Wrote:You CANNOT give an example of such a dichotomy between what a film captures, and what people report, as you're trying to pass off in this case.

Your point cannot be established unless you show the films have been altered and Mr Zavada, who knows I would think, a lot more about film alteration than you Ben, states the Zapruder film is an in camera original which means there was no limo stop. Period.

Nope. Doesn't mean that at all. Zavada made it quite clear that he didn't examine the actual imagery in the film. His only concern was the film itself. His only EXPERTISE was on the film itself. David Healy, for example; has detailed how the film can be blown up to 35mm, altered, then re-shot in the original camera.

Now, back to what I said, and you ran from: you CANNOT give an example of such a dichotomy between what a film captures, and what people report.

There are many lines of evidence leading to the extant Z-film having been altered.

Anyone interested in the topic would do well to get these two books:

The Great Zapruder Film Hoax - Deceit & Deception in the Death of JFK
The Hoax of the Century - Decoding the Forgery of the Zapruder Film