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+--- Thread: Dishonest Patrick's question (/Thread-Dishonest-Patrick-s-question)
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Re: Dishonest Patrick's question - Patrick C - 06-06-2016
Garry,
It would not surprise me at all if Oswald had connections to US Intel and possibly Cuban contacts at that time. I just do not see any convincing evidence that such organisations were behind the assassination. I accept that of course that a group of highly intelligent and powerful plotters may have had the means to cover up their activities - though I do also think might know by now if that was the.
What I find difficult to accept is that Oswald would be used in some form as a scapegoat. I don't know about you, but I have read a LOT of material on Oswald. He was a loner, he was a maverick and he could be unreliable.
=zr
His employment at the TSBD was pure coincidence ref the Dallas trip which meant that a group of plotters had very little time to put a plan into place. My belief is of course that Oswald elected to take his pot shot as few as 2 days before the Friday and I would hazard a guess he was hesitant until that last final hour no doubt amazed that he was in a position to make the shots.
No wonder Hoover covered his tracks, they should have interviewed Oswald that week, he had threatened to blow up the FBI offices or something to that effect and he was known to the agency as we all know both in N.O and Dallas.
Re: Dishonest Patrick's question - Garry Puffer - 06-06-2016
Patrick C Wrote:Garry,I submit that much of the information about Oswald that you take as gospel is in fact propaganda, e.g., Alfred Newman's take on the man. His loner status is much exaggerated, as is his propensity for violence.
It would not surprise me at all if Oswald had connections to US Intel and possibly Cuban contacts at that time. I just do not see any convincing evidence that such organisations were behind the assassination. I accept that of course that a group of highly intelligent and powerful plotters may have had the means to cover up their activities - though I do also think might know by now if that was the.
What I find difficult to accept is that Oswald would be used in some form as a scapegoat. I don't know about you, but I have read a LOT of material on Oswald. He was a loner, he was a maverick and he could be unreliable.
=zr
His employment at the TSBD was pure coincidence ref the Dallas trip which meant that a group of plotters had very little time to put a plan into place. My belief is of course that Oswald elected to take his pot shot as few as 2 days before the Friday and I would hazard a guess he was hesitant until that last final hour no doubt amazed that he was in a position to make the shots.
No wonder Hoover covered his tracks, they should have interviewed Oswald that week, he had threatened to blow up the FBI offices or something to that effect and he was known to the agency as we all know both in N.O and Dallas.
The assassination had been in the planning for months (these things take time), and apparently Dallas was only one of several possible sites, You believe that Oswald decided to do the deed a couple of days before. I simply cannot buy that. Too much evidence needs to be ignored, the same way much evidence about Oswald needs to be ignored in order to paint him as a psychopathic loner.
Re: Dishonest Patrick's question - Lee Abbott - 06-06-2016
Exactly where does Patrick get his secret knowledge allowing him to matter-of-factly say, "His employment at the TSBD was pure coincidence." ... ?
Re: Dishonest Patrick's question - Patrick C - 06-07-2016
It is no secret knowledge Lee, it is there for all to see. It came as a result of a chance meeting over coffee. Unless of course you think Roy Truly created the job and waited for Lee to apply......is that a cuckoo I can hear...?
Re: Dishonest Patrick's question - Patrick C - 06-07-2016
Garry you state
"You believe that Oswald decided to do the deed a couple of days before. I simply cannot buy that."
There is no evidence to suggest Oswald had meetings or contacts with individuals in the weeks leading up to the event. His landlady stated he stayed in his room and read. His telephone calls were with Marina - in Russian. There are no reports of Oswald in a bar, cafe, restaurant etc in Nov 1963 in Dallas.
Now of course it cannot be rules out that Oswald had no contacts, but there is no hint of them.
Personally I think it most likely Oswald hatched the plan when the newspaper printed the route which was as I recall Tuesday Nov 19.
I see no need whatsoever for a grand plan - as you seem to do. You say these things take time. Not for a lone gunman they don't.
Oswald has a rifle and ammo
He works in a building overlooking the route
He takes the rifle into work
Builds apile of boxes on which to rest his rifle and opens the window
Aims .....fires.....
Hardly needs great planning.
A simple act of murder.
"Too much evidence needs to be ignored,"
Really....like what?
He ordered his rifle in March to shoot Walker. He keeps the rifle.
We don't know where gets the ammo from - maybe left over from New Orleans earlier that year.
Re: Dishonest Patrick's question - Ben Holmes - 06-07-2016
Patrick C Wrote:There is no evidence to suggest Oswald had meetings or contacts with individuals in the weeks leading up to the event. His landlady stated he stayed in his room and read. His telephone calls were with Marina - in Russian. There are no reports of Oswald in a bar, cafe, restaurant etc in Nov 1963 in Dallas.
That's simply untrue.
Although highly classified, and we still don't know the extent of it, the CIA & FBI were excited by Oswald's renewed contacts with Cuban & Soviet intelligence agents in Mexico City.
And, of course, we have Antonio Veciana assertion that he'd seen Oswald talking to their mutual CIA handler, David Atlee Phillips.
And of course there's witnesses to Oswald in cafes & restaurants in the weeks leading up to the assassination - they were virtually all ignored by the Warren Commission - who's theory of a "loner" required them to avoid the evidence.
And just to give Patrick a target - how about Mary Lawrence, who saw Oswald & Ruby just 12 hours or so before the assassination? I'm willing to bet that Patrick cannot provide her sworn testimony on this issue...
Re: Dishonest Patrick's question - Patrick C - 06-07-2016
You are being too literal. I obviously meant in DALLAS......we all know Oswald was in Mexico City where no doubt he did peak interest.
Re: Dishonest Patrick's question - Patrick C - 06-07-2016
"And just to give Patrick a target - how about Mary Lawrence, who saw Oswald & Ruby just 12 hours or so before the assassination? I'm willing to bet that Patrick cannot provide her sworn testimony on this issue..."
Give us a break he was at the Paine residence in bed with his wife....!
Unless of course you are John Armstrong and believe in the "two Oswalds".....
"In the early morning hours of November 22, some 12 hours before the assassination, Mary Lawrence was working at the B & B Restaurant, just two doors from Jack Ruby's Vegas Club. She was the head waitress and had known Jack Ruby for the past eight years. She and the night cashier saw Jack Ruby and a person identical to Lee Harvey Oswald in the restaurant shortly after midnight on November 22. Following the assassination, she reported this to the Dallas Police and received a phone call on December 3 from an unknown male who stated, she said, "If you don't want to die, you better get out of town." When subsequently questioned by the Dallas Police, Mary Lawrence stated that the man with Ruby was "positively Lee Harvey Oswald." Neither Mary Lawrence nor her friend were interviewed by the Warren Commission. Adding some credibility to Mary Lawrence's report is the fact that few people in America knew back then what we know today--that Jack Ruby and (LEE) Harvey Oswald were seen together by many witnesses, in different locations, prior to the assassination, who gave statements to that effect to Dallas and D.C. authorities."
What a load of old tripe.
Re: Dishonest Patrick's question - Garry Puffer - 06-07-2016
Patrick C Wrote:Garry you state
"You believe that Oswald decided to do the deed a couple of days before. I simply cannot buy that."
There is no evidence to suggest Oswald had meetings or contacts with individuals in the weeks leading up to the event. His landlady stated he stayed in his room and read. His telephone calls were with Marina - in Russian. There are no reports of Oswald in a bar, cafe, restaurant etc in Nov 1963 in Dallas.
Now of course it cannot be rules out that Oswald had no contacts, but there is no hint of them.
Personally I think it most likely Oswald hatched the plan when the newspaper printed the route which was as I recall Tuesday Nov 19.
I see no need whatsoever for a grand plan - as you seem to do. You say these things take time. Not for a lone gunman they don't.
Oswald has a rifle and ammo
He works in a building overlooking the route
He takes the rifle into work
Builds apile of boxes on which to rest his rifle and opens the window
Aims .....fires.....
Hardly needs great planning.
A simple act of murder.
"Too much evidence needs to be ignored,"
Really....like what?
He ordered his rifle in March to shoot Walker. He keeps the rifle.
We don't know where gets the ammo from - maybe left over from New Orleans earlier that year.
Need I point out that every part of your reply begs the question? You cannot debate by begging the question. I thought you were aware of the rules of debate.
Some things to ponder:
1) Perhaps Oswald had nothing at all to do with the assassination and therefore would have no reason to meet anyone about it.
2) Why didn't Ruth Paine inform him of the better paying job that came along?
3) He DIDN'T shoot at Walker. You have no evidence at all that he did, NONE. That is only one thing among many that you have to ignore. Please don't make me list the other ninety-nine.
Re: Dishonest Patrick's question - Patrick C - 06-08-2016
"Why didn't Ruth Paine inform him of the better paying job that came along?"
Did she confirm she did not...?
I don't know, however I do now know where she is residing now thanks to Martin Hay in England and we will try and get in touch with her. I doubt with any success however in terms of a response.