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JFK's Head Wounds - Ben Holmes - 05-31-2016
Dale Hayes Wrote:Dr. Michael Baden: "The head exit wound was not in the parietal-occipital area, as the Parkland doctors said. They were wrong. That's why we have autopsies, photographs and X-rays to determine things like this. Since the thick growth of hair on Kennedy's head hadn't been shaved at Parkland, there was no way for the doctors to have seen the margins of the wound in the skin of the scalp. All they saw was blood and brain tissue adhering to the hair. And that may have been mostly in the occipital area because he was lying on his back and gravity would push his hair, blood and brain tissue backward, so many of them PRESUMED the exit wound was in the back of the head. But clearly, from the autopsy photographs and X-Rays and the observations of the autopsy surgeons, the exit wound and defect was NOT in the occipital area. There was NO defect or wound to the rear of Kennedy's head other than the entrance wound in the upper right part of his head"
Dr. Marion Jenkins, Parkland anesthesiologist: "I was standing at the head of the cart in the position the anesthesiologist most often assumes closest to the patient's head. The President's great shock of hair and the location of the head wound was such that it was NOT VISIBLE to those standing on each side of the gurney where they were carrying out their resuscitative maneuvers."
Dr. Carrico: "The President was lying on his back, so we COULDN'T SEE THE REAR PORTION OF HIS HEAD. Consequently what we did see APPEARED TO BE FURTHER BACK THAN IT WAS since we were not viewing it in relation to his whole head. But really, none of us were LOOKING CLOSELY AT WHERE THE DEFECT WAS AND MAKING MENTAL NOTES. WE WERE JUST TRYING TO SAVE HIS LIFE."
Dr. Charles Baxter: "Kennedy had such a bushy head of hair, and blood and all in it, YOU COULDN'T TELL WHAT WAS WOUND VERSUS DRIED BLOOD OR DANGLING TISSUE"
Direct quotes from the Parkland doctors - AFTER the autopsy results were known - the Parkland doctors, unlike the amateurs in this forum, KNOW the superior credence given to the pathologists' findings over their own visual observations in TR1 - these boobs in this forum are embarrassing to watch in action - they are completely ignorant and know NOTHING of what they speak.
This entire claim that the Parkland doctors were in disagreement with Bethesda is silly.
The autopsy report put it very nicely:
1. There is a large irregular defect of the scalp and skull on the right involving chiefly the parietal bone but extending somewhat into the temporal and occipital regions. In this region there is an actual absence of scalp and bone producing a defect which measures approximately 13 cm. in greatest diameter.
Sorry Dale - but "parietal-occipital" matches quite nicely with "parietal-occipital".
Always has, always will...
RE: JFK's Head Wounds - Ben Holmes - 09-12-2016
(05-31-2016, 03:59 PM)Ben Holmes Wrote:Dale Hayes Wrote:Dr. Michael Baden: "The head exit wound was not in the parietal-occipital area, as the Parkland doctors said. They were wrong. That's why we have autopsies, photographs and X-rays to determine things like this. Since the thick growth of hair on Kennedy's head hadn't been shaved at Parkland, there was no way for the doctors to have seen the margins of the wound in the skin of the scalp. All they saw was blood and brain tissue adhering to the hair. And that may have been mostly in the occipital area because he was lying on his back and gravity would push his hair, blood and brain tissue backward, so many of them PRESUMED the exit wound was in the back of the head. But clearly, from the autopsy photographs and X-Rays and the observations of the autopsy surgeons, the exit wound and defect was NOT in the occipital area. There was NO defect or wound to the rear of Kennedy's head other than the entrance wound in the upper right part of his head"
Dr. Marion Jenkins, Parkland anesthesiologist: "I was standing at the head of the cart in the position the anesthesiologist most often assumes closest to the patient's head. The President's great shock of hair and the location of the head wound was such that it was NOT VISIBLE to those standing on each side of the gurney where they were carrying out their resuscitative maneuvers."
Dr. Carrico: "The President was lying on his back, so we COULDN'T SEE THE REAR PORTION OF HIS HEAD. Consequently what we did see APPEARED TO BE FURTHER BACK THAN IT WAS since we were not viewing it in relation to his whole head. But really, none of us were LOOKING CLOSELY AT WHERE THE DEFECT WAS AND MAKING MENTAL NOTES. WE WERE JUST TRYING TO SAVE HIS LIFE."
Dr. Charles Baxter: "Kennedy had such a bushy head of hair, and blood and all in it, YOU COULDN'T TELL WHAT WAS WOUND VERSUS DRIED BLOOD OR DANGLING TISSUE"
Direct quotes from the Parkland doctors - AFTER the autopsy results were known - the Parkland doctors, unlike the amateurs in this forum, KNOW the superior credence given to the pathologists' findings over their own visual observations in TR1 - these boobs in this forum are embarrassing to watch in action - they are completely ignorant and know NOTHING of what they speak.
This entire claim that the Parkland doctors were in disagreement with Bethesda is silly.
The autopsy report put it very nicely:
1. There is a large irregular defect of the scalp and skull on the right involving chiefly the parietal bone but extending somewhat into the temporal and occipital regions. In this region there is an actual absence of scalp and bone producing a defect which measures approximately 13 cm. in greatest diameter.
Sorry Dale - but "parietal-occipital" matches quite nicely with "parietal-occipital".
Always has, always will...
It's truly amusing that believers run from these facts.
Clearly, there's a limit to the lies believers are willing to tell - and trying to lie about something as obvious as this is something only the most extreme believers are willing to do... such as John McAdams or David Von Pein.
Smarter believers, such as Patrick Collins or Henry Sienzant tend to stay far away from these sorts of topics...
RE: JFK's Head Wounds - Patrick C - 09-12-2016
Dales quote of Baden is sensible. Baden gives a very persuasive reason for how the docs at Parkland got the wound location slightly wrong in their memory.
I am not sure what you mean by
Ben Holmes Wrote:Sorry Dale - but "parietal-occipital" matches quite nicely with "parietal-occipital"
because what YOU are really saying is that the wound was further back because it was caused by a frontal strike blowing out more of the occiptial bone and cerebellum........this is NOT what the autopsy concluded.
RE: JFK's Head Wounds - Ben Holmes - 09-12-2016
(09-12-2016, 05:11 PM)Patrick C Wrote: Dales quote of Baden is sensible. Baden gives a very persuasive reason for how the docs at Parkland got the wound location slightly wrong in their memory.
His "persuasive reason" is a lie.
Dr. Baden is claiming that the Autopsy Report didn't put the wound in the Parietal-Occipital region.
THAT'S A LIE.
(09-12-2016, 05:11 PM)Patrick C Wrote: I am not sure what you mean by
Ben Holmes Wrote:Sorry Dale - but "parietal-occipital" matches quite nicely with "parietal-occipital"
because what YOU are really saying is that the wound was further back because it was caused by a frontal strike blowing out more of the occiptial bone and cerebellum........this is NOT what the autopsy concluded.
What's to understand?
Michael Baden said that "The head exit wound was not in the parietal-occipital area, as the Parkland doctors said. They were wrong."
Now, even YOU cannot claim that the Autopsy Report didn't put it in the Parietal-Occipital area - unless you're nitpicking the temporal.
Did Baden claim that the large wound was "was not in the parietal-occipital area?" (Unless you're dishonest, the answer is "yes")
Did the Autopsy report state that the large wound was in the parietal-occipital area? (Unless you're dishonest, the answer is "yes")
In case your memory fails you Patrick, here it is again:
Quote:1. There is a large irregular defect of the scalp and skull on the right involving chiefly the parietal bone but extending somewhat into the temporal and occipital regions. In this region there is an actual absence of scalp and bone producing a defect which measures approximately 13 cm. in greatest diameter.
Baden is flat wrong... and nothing you can do will save him.
His "persuasive reason" is a lie, and you know it to be a lie.
Don't you...?
RE: JFK's Head Wounds - Ben Holmes - 09-13-2016
Dead silence...
Surely it cannot be that I'm so persuasive that I've convinced you of the truth...
Far more likely is that you realize that you cannot come up with any misleading lies to refute what I've said, and it's better to simply run away...
Michael Baden was PROVABLY wrong - and believers dare not impugn the citation that proves Baden wrong - the Autopsy Report.
For without the Autopsy Report, they have no evidence at all for a lone assassin.
RE: JFK's Head Wounds - Ray Mitcham - 09-14-2016
Baden was not at Parkland or Bethesda so he was judging solely from photos and xrays (possibly fake and/or altered) provided for him.
Who you going to believe, Doctors at the site or soembody who wasn't there?
Head wound witnesses at Parkland. To ARRB
Dr Peters.
“And then Dr. Jenkins said, boys, before you think about opening the chest, you'd better step up here and look at this brain. And so at that point I did step around Dr. Baxter and looked in the President's head, and I reported to the Warren Commission that there was about a seven-centimeter hole in the occipitoparietal area that there was obviously quite a bit of brain missing. Some brain was hanging down in the wound, and I thought the cerebellum had been injured as well as the cerebral cortex. That's what I said at the time.”
MR. GUNN: Dr. Peters, there was something that you had said that you had wanted to talk about.
DR. PETERS: Well, it was concerning the injury to the cerebellum. I thought that at that time when I looked in his skull after Dr. Jenkins said, boys, you better come up here and take a look at this brain before you do anything as heroic as opening the chest and massaging the heart direct, and I thought the cerebellum was injured and of course, it was obvious there was quite a bit of the cerebral cortex missing. And I looked at it for a moment, and so when I was interviewed a few days later by Mr. Specter, I said I thought the cerebellum was injured.”
“DR. PETERS: Well, I would certainly agree with what Bob said. It was my thought exactly that they just kind of pulled that flap back into place and took a picture so they could show how it looked with things restored as much as possible and it just -- a flap just kind of -- had been torn back and now they were just kind of putting it back and snapping a picture. For what reason, I don't know. But I'm certain there was a hole there, too. I walked around right and looked in his head. You could look directly into the cranial vault and see cerebral injury to the cerebral cortex and I thought at the time to the cerebellum. So I know the hole was big enough to look into. I estimated it at seven centimeters at that time, and I don't know what the actual measurements were when they took the radiographs, but I thought just exactly what Bob, did. They were probably making a series of pictures and they had just pulled that flap back up there to cover it up and took a picture of that to show the head with the flap restored, so to speak, for whatever reason. I'm sure there were many other pictures that were made at the same time.”
Dr McClelland.
DR. McCLELLAND: And I think as testimony that this wound looked like everybody else has described it here. It was a very large wound and I would
agree that it was at least seven or eight centimeters in diameter and was mostly really in the occipital part of the skull. And as I was looking at it, a fairly large portion of the cerebellum fell out of the skull, There was already some brain there, but during the tracheostomy more fell out and that was clearly cerebellum. I mean, there was no doubt about it, and I was that far from it (indicating).
MR. GUNN: When you say "that far," you're putting your hands about twelve
inches apart.
DR. McCLELLAND: Twelve to 18 inches.
MR. GUNN: About how long were you at the head of the table?
DR. McCLELLAND: Oh, till they finished up the tracheostomy. I don't know exactly how long that would be, but I guess, you know, it had to be an absolute minimum of five minutes & probably somewhere between five & ten, but that's just a rough guess. But it was certainly more than just a, you know, transient view of it. It was a concentrated view.”
DR.McCLELLAND: “There was nothing in the - in the area where the cerebellum usually sits.
And as I said, most of it was probably gone when I first began to look down into the wound, and then as I stood there, probably just maybe a minute after I came in, another large portion of it, which I thought - I remember thinking now, well, that's the rest of the cerebellum oozed out into the table. So it's not, well, I kind of think it was. It was.
(09-13-2016, 02:17 PM)Ben Holmes Wrote: Dead silence...
Surely it cannot be that I'm so persuasive that I've convinced you of the truth...
Far more likely is that you realize that you cannot come up with any misleading lies to refute what I've said, and it's better to simply run away...
Michael Baden was PROVABLY wrong - and believers dare not impugn the citation that proves Baden wrong - the Autopsy Report.
For without the Autopsy Report, they have no evidence at all for a lone assassin.
RE: JFK's Head Wounds - Ben Holmes - 09-14-2016
(09-14-2016, 04:29 PM)Ray Mitcham Wrote: Baden was not at Parkland or Bethesda so he was judging solely from photos and xrays (possibly fake and/or altered) provided for him.
Who you going to believe, Doctors at the site or soembody who wasn't there?
I'm amused that Patrick refuses to chime in, and state what is clearly obvious...
As Dr. Baden is quoted:
Dr. Baden Wrote:The head exit wound was not in the parietal-occipital area, as the Parkland doctors said.
Dr. Baden then points to what he considered more credible: "That's why we have autopsies, photographs and X-rays to determine things like this." - yet the Autopsy Report puts the wound exactly where the Parkland doctors put it.
It's just that simple.
Dr. Baden is, at the very least, badly confused... and if he understood the evidence as well as I do - then he's a liar.
It's just that simple.
And not a single believer will EVER step forward and defend Dr. Baden's assertion as quoted here... they can't.
I might point out that what Dr. Baden is ACTUALLY doing is putting his opinion forth as facts - and disregarding the very evidence he points to - the Autopsy.
RE: JFK's Head Wounds - Patrick C - 09-15-2016
I disagree, the Parkland doctors put the wound further back than the autopsy report placed the wound.
Of course there is going to be some degree of laxity on behalf of the Parkland staff because they did not measure the wound at all and all they have is an impression from memory. It is perplexing that they almost all thought the wound was further back than it was, but it should not be surprising.
It has though given rise to a lot of pro conspiracy bunkum over the years which is rather a shame.
Baden is quite correct of course and give his profession and experience one should not be surprised. There is no doubt that a bullet entered the back of the head. Anyone who thinks differently needs their head looking at - no pun intended.
RE: JFK's Head Wounds - Ben Holmes - 09-15-2016
(09-15-2016, 01:15 PM)Patrick C Wrote: I disagree, the Parkland doctors put the wound further back than the autopsy report placed the wound.
You're LYING AGAIN, Patrick.
You'll ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to provide any evidence whatsoever that the Parietal-Occipital described by the Parkland doctors is different than the 'chiefly the parietal bone but extending somewhat into the temporal and occipital regions'...
The fact that you'll refuse to cite for any difference demonstrates that you KNOW that you're lying.
(09-15-2016, 01:15 PM)Patrick C Wrote: Of course there is going to be some degree of laxity on behalf of the Parkland staff because they did not measure the wound at all and all they have is an impression from memory. It is perplexing that they almost all thought the wound was further back than it was, but it should not be surprising.
It has though given rise to a lot of pro conspiracy bunkum over the years which is rather a shame.
Baden is quite correct of course and give his profession and experience one should not be surprised. There is no doubt that a bullet entered the back of the head. Anyone who thinks differently needs their head looking at - no pun intended.
Baden's a liar, and so are you. Baden DIRECTLY conflicts with the location of the wound as given by the Autopsy Report - claiming that it was NOT in the Parietal-Occipital - "The head exit wound was not in the parietal-occipital area, as the Parkland doctors said."
So let's do this ...
Patrick - TELL US WHERE THE LARGE WOUND ON JFK'S HEAD WAS...
Use medical terminology, and be as accurate as you can.
If you DARE to use the terms Parietal or Occipital - you'll have proven yourself a liar.
My crystal ball is SCREAMING at me right now - telling me that you'll never have the courage nor honesty to answer the question...
RE: JFK's Head Wounds - Ben Holmes - 09-15-2016
Patrick has posted without answering this...
Surely he doesn't want everyone to think him a coward... WHERE IS YOUR ANSWER, PATRICK?
You've asserted that the large head wound on JFK was not located in the Parietal-Occipital... where was it?
Why are you afraid to answer?