[Lee Abbott]

Patrick is a civilized liar in that he'll simply say it's his "opinion".

[Ben Holmes]

Lee Abbott Wrote:Patrick is a civilized liar in that he'll simply say it's his "opinion".

Sorry Lee... opinions aren't lies. As long as Patrick is making it clear that he's only expressing his opinion, this forum will not allow that poster to be labeled a liar.

Pointed out "Lies" must be factual, preferably on the evidence, and both the quote of the lie, as well as a citation to the evidence proving it a lie should be provided.

I'm quite sure that even Patrick would agree with such a policy.

[Lee Abbott]

Alright then, Dr. Holmes. Earlier today Patrick yet again referred to JFK's fictitious 2.3 inch (he said 2.5) forward head movement just before Z-313 to imply the bullet came from behind. Patrick, however, is well-aware that Josiah Thompson, who made that head movement famous in his "Six Seconds in Dallas" now, after further study, admits it was an optical illusion.

He explains it in his YouTube presentation "The Untrue Fact About the JFK Assassination":
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgHllYzzFWc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgHllYzzFWc</a><!-- m -->

It seems to me an honest person wouldn't consider an optical illusion as factual.

[Ben Holmes]

Lee Abbott Wrote:It seems to me an honest person wouldn't consider an optical illusion as factual.

I prefer to stay away from evidence that is merely based on someone's opinion.

An argument could be made either way on the very shaky camera movements...

Now, the second weapon seen in the Alyea frame - there's no-one who's not a believer who can't see two weapons in that frame... yet Patrick pretends to see a cardboard box.

Or my favorite, Henry's blatant lie about the Parkland Press Conference - asserting that the doctors had stated that the throat wound might have been an exit during that conference.

Ben Holmes Wrote:

Henry Sienzant Wrote:Henry lies: "They likewise conjectured that a portion of the bullet or a fragment of bone might have exited the throat from the head shot from behind (THROAT EXIT).

YOU'RE LYING AGAIN, HENRY!!! NO SUCH STATEMENT WAS MADE AT THE PRESS CONFERENCE.

(Henry went on to claim that the transcripts were altered, then denied ever stating that the transcripts were altered... it's quite difficult to tell a single lie without adding many more lies in an attempt to support the first one... The full transcript is found here.)

Items like those are clear and blatant lies. And I will never object to labeling these sorts as lies...

[Patrick C]

Ben Holmes Wrote:Sorry Lee... opinions aren't lies. As long as Patrick is making it clear that he's only expressing his opinion, this forum will not allow that poster to be labeled a liar.

Pointed out "Lies" must be factual, preferably on the evidence, and both the quote of the lie, as well as a citation to the evidence proving it a lie should be provided.

I'm quite sure that even Patrick would agree with such a policy.

Yes agreed, Lee accuses me of lying all the time elsewhere too......poor fellow, maybe he fell over and hit is head and can't quite think straight.....

[Lee Abbott]

Ben Holmes Wrote:Sorry Lee... opinions aren't lies. As long as Patrick is making it clear that he's only expressing his opinion, this forum will not allow that poster to be labeled a liar.

I respectfully disagree... When someone makes a ridiculous statement, then adds, "That's my opinion," it's as good as a lie.

If, for example, I said,"Patrick's brother is married to a chip, imo," how would you "label" that if not a lie?

[Patrick C]

Lee Abbott Wrote:When someone makes a ridiculous statement, then adds, "That's my opinion," it's as good as a lie.

Actually,no it is not Lee. I think I can say hand on heart I am reasonably well informed on the JFK case, sure I do not retain anything like as much as I did when I was deeply embedded in the subject in the 80s, but my opinions are genuine and they are certainly NOT lies.

I have no doubt made errors of recollection and may have posted an inaccurate comment on the odd occasion but I have not made any intention to lie or deceive. Not one jot.

And I have never posted a ridiculous statement, you however disagree - for example you seem to think that an adult male would NOT use a shoulder or a thigh to shift a pile of boxes a few inches. This is provably incorrect as I have done that exact action when moving house over a ten hour period using the U Haul boxes over in Arizona - I pushed many piles of 3 or 4 boxes a few inches with my legs, shoulder and forearms rather than lifting.

I am not saying Oswald DID move boxes that way, I was merely pointing out that perhaps he did not use his fingers and palms as much as you would have expected.

Point made I trust.

[Lee Abbott]

Patrick, your theories are collapsing by the minute and you're misrepresenting your previous comments. You just stated, for example,

Patrick C Wrote:you seem to think that an adult male would NOT use a shoulder or a thigh to shift a pile of boxes a few inches. This is provably incorrect as I have done that exact action when moving house over a ten hour period using the U Haul boxes over in Arizona - I pushed many piles of 3 or 4 boxes a few inches with my legs, shoulder and forearms rather than lifting.

The topic was that few, if any, of Oswald's prints were on the sniper's nest boxes, and you originally suggested he moved them while using his forearms. The thighs, shoulders & legs came later after you either realized how foolish you sounded, or you got it mixed up with your list of chicken parts you intended to get at the market. Plus, we're not discussing moving heavy boxes of books "a few inches" which is another misrepresentation of our original discussion.... And stacking boxes on top of one-another isn't done with shoulders and thighs.

The point is you're constantly interjecting "it's possible" with each and every scenario in this matter. In fact, I'm always anxiously waiting for your subsequent comments just to see how desperate you've become supporting your views from last century.

[Patrick C]

I think you have tried to make my point look silly and failed.

I have never suggested that Oswald would not use is arms and hands - if he had to lift the boxes he would have to - as he would have done with the box closest to the window on which he rested (probably).

Many of the boxes were already stacked - these are what I am referring to. And I think it is entirely reasonable to suggest that because boxes were already stacked Oswald could have pushed them with his shoulder, thighs or feet and this could (just could) be why there are few prints.

Of course I use the word POSSIBLE because NON OF US KNOW and WILL NEVER KNOW exactly how the boxes were assembled / moved / stacked ....NOBODY WAS THERE when he did it. Neither do we know where Oswald assembled the rifle - it is POSSIBLE it could have been on the 7th floor.

So ALL WE HAVE is possibilities for how an end result came to be. Period.

[Lee Abbott]

Patrick C Wrote:Of course I use the word POSSIBLE because NON OF US KNOW and WILL NEVER KNOW exactly how the boxes were assembled / moved / stacked ....NOBODY WAS THERE when he did it. Neither do we know where Oswald assembled the rifle - it is POSSIBLE it could have been on the 7th floor.

Then considering Alfred Hitchcock was alive in 1963, I suppose it's possible he coordinated the pigeons on the TSBD's roof and had them fly into the 6th floor's open window and they set up the snipers nest.... After all, who would know more about building nests than birds?