[Patrick C]

Courtesy DVP

"And the agent in question is probably not Henry Rybka, as long thought. It's probably Donald Lawton."

[Ben Holmes]

Patrick C Wrote:

Ben Holmes Wrote:I find it amusing that you think this is some sort of "joke" - the theory of Secret Service involvement isn't a secret, it's widely published in numerous books.

Yes, sensationalist books in which it is presented as a theory in which there is no proof.

There never will be "proof" - that's a silly statement, and beneath you.

Judgement of the past is done the way any historical science is done - you look at the evidence, then you look at the competing explanations, and make a determination which explanation covers the facts most easily.

Every single time believers demand "proof" - what they're doing is erecting an impossible straw wall that cannot be breached... even by them. For example, Patrick; can you provide "proof" that the bullet which struck JFK actually transited the body?

Patrick C Wrote:

Ben Holmes Wrote:There PROVABLY was a Secret Service coverup... as I'm quite sure you'll acknowledge. While not proving SS complicity, it certainly supports it.

Depends what you mean by a cover up - I would not call washing the crime scene a cover up if that is what you mean.

I thought anyway you wanted this forum to be a serious one...?

That the Secret Service conducted a major coverup in this case is beyond any dispute... it's merely a fact to be weighed.

When you cannot even admit that the Secret Service covered up relevant information in this case, and destroyed relevant files - then all you're doing is admitting that your explanation doesn't fit the facts, so you wish to change the facts.

I'll take the facts as they are, and provide the explanation that best fits them.

Your definition of a "serious" forum is one that few people would accept. You clearly think that ignoring the FACTUAL coverup of the Secret Service would fit in a "serious" forum.

Ben Holmes Wrote:And, were I you, Patrick, I'd keep my mouth shut about the agent at Love field... the more you talk about it, the more laughable this becomes.

You're now making the assertion that events of this sort weren't planned. That every agent didn't know when and where he was supposed to be.

Is that some kind of joke?

I'm guessing you had nothing to say about this...

[Ben Holmes]

Patrick C Wrote:Courtesy DVP

David Von Pein Wrote:And the agent in question is probably not Henry Rybka, as long thought. It's probably Donald Lawton."

Speculation doesn't change the facts.

Putting another name to the person changes NOTHING AT ALL.

No-one has argued that this topic has any relevance at all to the name. And until better EVIDENCE comes along, I'll continue to refer to him as Rybka.

Now, tell everyone why you believe his obvious amazement was related to a "shift break"...

Most viewers (probably 99% or more), would relate that amazement to being called off of his pre-planned duty at literally the last second.

[Patrick C]

Except that the guy himself stated he was due to remain at Love Field...

Have you heard the expression get it from the horses mouth Ben.......

[Ben Holmes]

Patrick C Wrote:Except that the guy himself stated he was due to remain at Love Field...

Have you heard the expression get it from the horses mouth Ben.......

My best educated guess is that you're going to be proven a liar on this... but I'll wait for you to CITE the evidence you're claiming first.

In the meantime, let's see what the earliest written statement actually says:

Henry Rybka Wrote:Upon arrival at Love Field, Dallas, Texas aboard Air Force ONE (26000) at 11:35 am, I proced (sic) to the follow-up car 679-X and stationed myself at the right front fender of 679-X and the rear of 100-X. There I stopped everyone from going in between the cars. once the motor-cade began to move I moved along with it, until the motor-cade picked up speed. From this point I returned to the immediate area of Air Force ONE.

(Take from Commission Exhibit 2554)

Nothing in there about being "due" to remain at Love Field.

Nothing in there that would contradict that he was ORDERED at the last minute to remain at Love Field.

I'll wait for you to either provide the citation you claim exists, or to retract your statement before I label you a liar.

[Lee Abbott]

After the several decades Patrick C has been a serious student of Nov 22nd, he still doesn't understand the totem pole of truth in this matter.... Patrick? Marina is at the bottom, then comes various US government agencies in no particular order. They include the DPD, Secret Service, CIA, FBI and of course the Warren Commission.

After those there are the experts - most of whom were either affiliated with one of the afore mentioned US government agencies or did a significant amount of work for them. And when they encountered one whose conclusions didn't jive with what they wanted to hear like Dr. Dolce, for example, they weren't called to testify.

Next are the many witnesses whose testimony was often altered (13 times in his according to Roger Craig) or they were "influenced" what to say.

Finally are the WR believers, and those may be the most dishonest because they, unlike the others, don't have a motive to lie.

How's the view from the top, Patrick?

[Patrick C]

Ben Holmes Wrote:I'll wait for you to either provide the citation you claim exists, or to retract your statement before I label you a liar.

Back to your thugish ways Holmes....?

An opinion nor an alternate explanation (as per DVP on Rybka / the agent was "not Henry Rybka - It's probably Donald Lawton.) ......

is NOT a lie Holmes.

If you call me a liar, I will simply stop posting. It is ignorant and it is simply not true. Your understanding of the word is frankly appalling for a so called adult.

You started this forum with some basic ground rules and you have broken them yourself - hardly a good example.

Remember what happened on Amazon, people with a different view to you simply started ignoring you and you ended up with no or little debate - with you.

[Ben Holmes]

Patrick C Wrote:

Ben Holmes Wrote:I'll wait for you to either provide the citation you claim exists, or to retract your statement before I label you a liar.

Back to your thugish ways Holmes....?

An opinion nor an alternate explanation (as per DVP on Rybka / the agent was "not Henry Rybka - It's probably Donald Lawton.) ......

is NOT a lie Holmes.

Nor did I label it such.

What I labeled as a lie is your claim that:

Patrick C Wrote:Except that the guy himself stated he was due to remain at Love Field...

Have you heard the expression get it from the horses mouth Ben.......

Now, I asked that you cite for that claim - you've refused to do so, so I now assert you're lying.

Patrick C Wrote:If you call me a liar, I will simply stop posting. It is ignorant and it is simply not true. Your understanding of the word is frankly appalling for a so called adult.

You started this forum with some basic ground rules and you have broken them yourself - hardly a good example.

Remember what happened on Amazon, people with a different view to you simply started ignoring you and you ended up with no or little debate - with you.

I've told you before what the ground rules are. If a poster can quote what someone posts, then CITE the evidence that proves that they are lying, then it's permissible to point it out. This has been posted from the beginning...

If you cannot cite for your claims, then by all means, run away... but it's not because I'm labeling your lies for what they are, it's because you cannot support your false statements about the evidence. I've told you before that I don't fear your threats to leave. While I enjoy having any believer post here who believes they can support their statements, if they cannot, I'll simply point it out.

[Patrick C]

It comes from DVP's web site where he quotes both Rybka and Lawton as stating they were to remain at Love Field.

I posted a link. There are direct quotes from the two agents.

DVP it seems has determined that the agent was saying he was off for lunch and may have made some joke about that.

[Ben Holmes]

Patrick C Wrote:It comes from DVP's web site where he quotes both Rybka and Lawton as stating they were to remain at Love Field.

I posted a link. There are direct quotes from the two agents.

DVP it seems has determined that the agent was saying he was off for lunch and may have made some joke about that.

You did not cite when you made the statement, and in several posts after it, you STILL have not cited. Claiming that you did in the past is a poor excuse for not merely providing the citation for people to go look at.

So I'll point out yet again that you're a liar, Patrick. Quote where Rybka said he was "due to remain at Love field" - or retract your statement. I've cited his statement, and he makes no such assertion.

DVP's website isn't a citation - unless you're making a statement about David Von Pein.

Cite the ACTUAL STATEMENTS OR TESTIMONY that support your claim - or admit you have none.